hackthis_archive | And to think I was trying to spare myself.

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wait -- i'm having a thought

And to think I was trying to spare myself.

ETA: Okay, I wrote it, posted it, decided I didn't need the blood pressure issues, got yelled at for closing it off (

antheia AND

copracat), and said, ah well, fuck it. Have at it.

Okay, I don't know what I love more about

defamer that they throw in the phrase "manager who lives in the TV set" in reference to Kevin Connolly -- Eric to the Entourage folk -- or that they do a complete dissection of Ari appearing on the cover of Los Angeles. Oh, hey, guess who was on last month's cover? George. Yeah, I tell no lies. You want something really wild? I wrote about Ari being on the cover last week as a lark, but didn't actually know he was going to be on it. Yeah, smoke that one.

In other news, after reading this article*

issaro asked, "Where are the naked men?" which is such a valid question, it's really is a bit like that advert, "Where's the beef?"

To which she,

serialkarma and I then had an exchange about how society views the male and female bodies, who sees what as erotic*, why Playgirl is just scary, and why everybody should just keep their clothes on. Unless your name is Tom Welling.

hackthis: //"Men just aren't viewed as sex objects in the same way that women are," Min says. // Um, on what planet is this? Naked men aren't hot? Uh, maybe not to her, but to me, hell yeah! The female form, you know, I have one, doesn't really interest me all that much as long as it doesn't break down, but the male form? Right on. Obviously this is why no one thinks I could ever be a lesbian.

serialkarma: You realize she meant in a societal sense, right? In which case, I think she totally has a point. Also about how we aren't trained to view the male body in an erotic way the way we are the female body--even straight women. Ever looked at a Playgirl? A friend of mine had a subscription in college, and we all used to look at and go "Huh. You know, I think they'd be sexier with clothes. The nude male just looks kind of funny.

issaro: It is a good point. But there's the flip side she doesn't discuss. Women also take off their clothes because it gives them power. The nude female form can be and is extremely powerful. Men just feel vulnerable when nude. Whether it's a good thing or bad that that's how women get power is being debated in the article but either way it's power and I don't think men have the same sense of empowerment when naked. If that makes any sense?

hackthis: You know I just don't see the female body as erotic. At all. I have one, so not interested. Playgirl, okay, that's just wrong because they're all waxed, Mystic tanned and photoshopped to within an inch of their lives. It's just weird. And wrong. I mean, do *you* feel empowered when you're naked? [I just tend to feel a bit cold]

So, now I bring the question to you lot: What do you find erotic? Why? Why not? Do you feel empowered when you're naked or would you rather have sex full clothed and through a sheet (hey, the religions may be on to something here)? Does this whole women are empowered through nudity sound like a crock of shit to you, too? Why can't we be empowered in our pyjamas? Why does Janet Jackson get publically flogged for life for flashing at the Super Bowl? Why are men who appear naked in films seen as "brave" when it's almost de rigeur for women? Who made up these rules and where can we find him (because you know it's a man) to do very vile and unseemly things to him in the name of 'empowerment'?

Plese note that this is to be a proper discussion. I trust you all know how to behave without resorting to name-calling, unless you're talking trash about Tom Ford or the chauvisnistic industry structure, then it's okay.

*I should point out that I have said Vanity Fair and my only thoughts upon seeing said article where a) Tom Ford has no place on that cover b) Both girls could stand to eat more and c) More importantly, why are they on this cover? Neither one of them could act their way out of a paper bag!

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In my brief foray into mainstream porn watching (stuff I found on cable, so not hardcore at all!), the total lack of intimacy was what turned me off the most. Big-breasted girls start to kiss each other and stare directly into the camera for titillation purposes - not erotic at all. Mostly gross, in fact. While a fully clothed kiss on network TV can make me pant if the two participating are totally into it. I think that's why the emo boy kissing vid that went around last year was so hot to me - they both got way into it, even if it wasn't their normal thing.

I like Keira and Scarlett as actresses better than Rachel McM, but that's neither here nor there.

I find that cover boring and irritating and it would be a lot better w/out Tom Ford, as long as they didn't do a faux lesbian thing, b/c OMG that pisses me off. I suppose it's supposed to be an allusion/homage/shoutie/ripoff of that painting (http://www.unlv.edu/faculty/gbrown/hist362/manet_dejeuner_sur_lherbe.jpg), but that's absolutely no excuse. Rather, it screams "We have made LITTLE PROGRESS in 143 years.

As for women not finding naked men attractive, I think that's BS. Yeah, fandom is its own beast, but just thinking of the furor over the Tiny Towel...

What do you find erotic? Why?

Kickass chicks, favoring the butch. Starbuck is about the hottest fictional character I've ever seen, not for the least b/c she has actual MUSCLES and an athletic body. One of my friends made fun of me b/c she handed me a Maxim and I ogled the ONE GUY in it, but really, those shoots do absolutely nothing for me.

I also dig guys, generally muscled but not *too* muscled. Clothedness, total or partial, can be just as sexy as nekkidness. It's hard to beat a girl or guy in a white tank, jeans and bare feet. Le yum.

The spurning of gender roles in general I find hot.

Genderfucking and ambiguity. Drag kings in particular.

Do you feel empowered when you're naked or would you rather have sex full clothed and through a sheet (hey, the religions may be on to something here)?

Depends on the setting. I'm not particularly shy about my body, and have no problem baring my stomach or walking around in a sports bra. I bellydance, and it's really interesting the different reactions I get. As long as I'm in reasonable control of the situation, it can be empowering, but I am always on the lookout for assholes. But then, bellydancing costume!=naked.

Does this whole women are empowered through nudity sound like a crock of shit to you, too?

I think like so much else it's been corrupted, coopted, commercialized, and probably a few other words starting with C.

Why can't we be empowered in our pyjamas? Why does Janet Jackson get publically flogged for life for flashing at the Super Bowl?

You know, at one point I nearly wrote an essay on this, to be titled; "I'ma have you nekkid by the end of this song; Janet Jackson as a Victim Blamed."

Why are men who appear naked in films seen as "brave" when it's almost de rigeur for women?

I have no insight on that issue.

Who made up these rules and where can we find him (because you know it's a man) to do very vile and unseemly things to him in the name of 'empowerment'?

I don't know, but I back you all the way.

After taking Art History, would you believe that when I saw the cover that Manet painting, Dejeuner Sur L'Herbe was the first fucking thing I thought of? Weirdness.

As for women not finding naked men attractive, I think that's BS. Yeah, fandom is its own beast, but just thinking of the furor over the Tiny Towel...

*sigh* Bless the Tiny Towel. And bless Starbuck, both occuring on one show no less. Of course, BSG also has one of the most diverse casts on TV, tends to address all sorts of crazy political shit that no on wants to talk about, and hey, they let Kara do what she wants, so you know they're the exception to the rule instead of, which is very sad.

Clothedness, total or partial, can be just as sexy as nekkidness. It's hard to beat a girl or guy in a white tank, jeans and bare feet. Le yum.

I said to someone in another comment that the whole issue could've been improved by sticking everyone in low slung jeans, tee shirts and sporting bare feet. I stand by this firmly. As for the belly-dancing, rock on with your bad self. My friend took me one time, and OMG that shit is so hard! I do yoga and I was still using muscles I didn't know existed.

You know, at one point I nearly wrote an essay on this, to be titled; "I'ma have you nekkid by the end of this song; Janet Jackson as a Victim Blamed."

I would totally want to read that.

I like Keira in Bend it Like Beckham, but I suspect that's more down to the movie than anything else. I detest Scarlett Johansen's non-acting arse. She's clearly an example of using your body to get ahead, and while I'm always for anybody with anything resembling a real figure getting ahead, she's just loathesome and her lack of acting is taking jobs away from people who *can* act.

Naked men are totally hot [see: those hotass french rugby players who get naked and take pictures every year (http://theantimodel.livejournal.com/57000.html#cutid1).] It's like that bullshit attitude where everyone knows guys masturbate but girls aren't allowed to admit that they do too. Guys can be openly turned on by something and if a girl is -- well, we just don't speak of it, okay? And that totally pisses me off. On the complete opposite side, all those feminists who think that by empowering women sexually they're changing the world also piss me off. Sexual equality does not equal true equality. And while I'd totally love it if women didn't have to deal with sexual stigmas, I'd love it a lot more if we didn't have to deal with all those other stigmas too.

That article on Vanity Fair is really interesting. I personally think women can be really, really sexy but the fact that Kiera and Scarlett are super scrawny and are porcelain-doll pale juxtaposed with the fully clothed Tom Ford, well, it doesn't exactly add up to sex for me. I think the attitude of the VF editor is a little surprising. When queer as folk came out everyone was all shocked that their biggest market was middle aged women, same as with brokeback mountain. You'd think that the industry would take a hint from that and start realising that all their preconceptions about women and what they're turned on by are actually misconceptions.

smonsterbite mentioned that somewhere someone had compared the cover to Manet's Dejeuner Sur L'Herbe' (http://www.unlv.edu/faculty/gbrown/hist362/manet_dejeuner_sur_lherbe.jpg), which was totally what I thought of the first time I saw it.

As for the pastiness thing, well, I don't even need to go there, but if you're feeling the urge to participate in today's race relations discussion it's on fire over at

ethrosdemon's LJ.

On a purely visual level, show me a scar or blemish, not an evenly powdered and concealer-laden canvas.

Oh, absolutely. I prefer scars to flawlessness anyday.

Yes and while we're hating on Johansen can I say how completely unsexy her stupid voice is? Also Lost in Translation and her performance in it sucked and wasn't insightful, moving, brilliant or anything besides BORING.

LOL can you tell I'm serious about how much she annoys me? :)

WORD! Lost in Translation underwhelmed me so much I was like, yeesh, this pretty much sucks. But, you know, Bill Murray.

I'm sure it is attempting to convey a certian type of message; I've just decided that I don't want to pick up the phone.

As for the whole tangled mess of sex, nudity, and power with women, I tend to blame everything on men's madonna/whore complexes. There's always been this dichotomy that men believe they can be saved by a woman's purity, but they also believe they are helpless before a woman's sexual wiles. So, yes women can have power over men by using their sexuality, but in doing so they are buying into the bullshit notion that men are rendered helpless and out of control by their sexual urges.

Men, they have issues. ;) Not all men (doesn't want to offend the boys who come around here) but a good amount.

Guys who aren't overdone. Bulging muscles, those huge six-pack don't really do it for me. If you're going to be flashing all that, keep your clothes on. You look better that way to me, probably because I can pretend you're not that big. It's just huge guys weird me out. However, skinny guys are kinda hot and I can handle those in the middle. Still, it's not the nakedness that I find really erotic. It's the eyes, man. The eyes! Wentworth Miller's stare puts me in heat. Tom Welling's makes me shiver. Alex Kapranos' eyes makes me feel all nervously excited to see all his secrets. Jason Mraz's makes me feel all goofy flirtateous. Hayden Christensen's makes me want to fuck him. Hard. Preferably with a ten inch dildo. Yeah, I know.

You had me right until you got to Franz Ferdinand, but I whole-heartedly agree with the whole big muscles thing being a huge turn-off. That's somewhere past excessive into scary land.

However, getting naked does give you power, much in the same way having a lot of money givs you power. Everyone wants money! If you want to persuade someone to do something, money is a great way to go about it. Likewise with getting naked. They're also similar in that they're considered unethical ways of getting what you want. In my mind, part of women moving along is this world is that we've been given the tools and the opportunity to gain power without getting naked. To me, the fact that we're still getting naked to achieve power is basically solidifying a viewpoint that even when all the tools for success and attention are at our fingertips, we still pick the most basic, easiest, and least respectful way of achieving it.

I agree with you right up to the point where you say that women have been given the tools to get ahead without resorting to getting naked. I sadly think that this VF cover proves otherwise, since if that were true, they could've had Keira and Scarlett naked and Rachel could've just sat in Tom Ford's place fully clothed, but no. She decided she didn't want to play the game and so they said, "Ha! No cover for you."

I find pics of very fit (in the UK sense of the word aka hot) semi-naked men extremely...nice. I'm not that turned on by total nudity, but give me a pic of a beautiful man wearing low-slung jeans or briefs, and well. I'll be there. If it's in black-and-white and faintly artistic, whoah. Also, the curve between thigh and hip is the most beautiful spot.

Oh, and beautiful pictures of semi-clothed celebs with bare feet. Yess.

Trouble is, they're hard to find, outside of LJ-land; instead you get gay beefcake, all shiny, overdeveloped waxed chests, just the exact parallel of all those hideous blonde girls with bouncy tits, waxed privates and collagen-implanted lips.

I think women can totally get into this stuff if they're allowed (or allow themselves). I might blush in public, but online? Uhh. Right click drool. Things are changing slightly, but I think women find it hard to admit this stuff is a turn-on, either because they're trying to distance themselves from sexist male attitudes, or because they're busy being grown-up and recommending new kinds of tinted moisturiser.

I knew you would feel that way and yay because everyone else I've talked to about that movies is like 'oh well you just didn't get it! It's a woman director and genius!' NOPE. Bill Murray rules but remember how everyone was going on about how his performance was a revelation blah blah? Fuck that he was lonely sad funny guy in Rushmore first and ten times better. Er not that I have weird anger issues over that movie or anything LOL

You didn't get it. What. The. Fuck. Ever. Don't marginalise my opinion just because I didn't relate to some bimbo's woe-my-life-sucks bollocks. Was she supposed to be relatable, because you know, swanning around an expensive Toyko hotel and drinking with an older man, yeah, not real relatable unless your a hooker? But then again, the only Coppola I tend to like is Francis.

swanning around an expensive Toyko hotel and drinking with an older man, yeah, not real relatable unless your a hooker - *dies* I think I love you.

God yeah forget Sofia with her mary sue movie and oh boo hoo her life with Spike Jonze was so isolated and lonely and sad and she wishes her movie were human and don't even get me started on how the first shot in the film is of Johansen's ass. Ugh.

Okay yeah that's it. I'm done now but we could rant about how much Garden State annoyed me next :D

don't even get me started on how the first shot in the film is of Johansen's ass.

OMG, what the FUCK was *that* about. What was she trying to say? That she was objectified and became nothing more than a piece of ass? Please don't make me stroke out. That girl is a Coppola, she had every fucking opportunity money could possibly buy.

The film was supposed to be about her isolationist marriage to Spike Jones? Huh, did he tell her to isolate herself? I'm telling you, there're two sides to every fucking story.

*I do actually tend to have smart things to say, but like any good Slytherin I'm too lazy to say them until I'm about to have some sort of episode.

That's a lot to answer. Shall give it a try:

What do you find erotic? Why? Why not?

Evi's ass. Dom's feet and hands. Viggo's eyes. Evi in a red carpet dress, and in a bathing suit. Gary Oldman. ~~Rupert's bedroom eyes~~

No idea why - just some things grab me.

Do you feel empowered when you're naked or would you rather have sex full clothed and through a sheet (hey, the religions may be on to something here)?

Depends on the state of my bod these days. When I was more active, I felt more empowered.

Does this whole women are empowered through nudity sound like a crock of shit to you, too? Why can't we be empowered in our pyjamas?

*looks down* I am! ;) But it doesn't sound like shit. I'm for people feeling empowered however they want to. If that means tits showing, yay for them. It's a very individual thing.

Why does Janet Jackson get publically flogged for life for flashing at the Super Bowl?

*looks at white house* You asked a question? It's all about appearance these days, not substance. We have no substance. (in our leadership, both political and otherwise)

Why are men who appear naked in films seen as "brave" when it's almost de rigeur for women? Who made up these rules and where can we find him (because you know it's a man) to do very vile and unseemly things to him in the name of 'empowerment'?

2 words: Male Ego. They're terrified of letting willy show. Willy may be VERY SMALL and everyone knows small sucks, right? (yeah, I know, but THEY don't).

Dude! The power of me! Rock!

Ahem..

In precis:

Ha ha! I wrote this whole enraged post about that Vanity Fair shoot with lots of stabbity Tom Ford stabbity stabbity stab and then went meh! and decided I didn't want to send clicks to the site because then they would have succeeded in what they wanted - getting attention. My decision then was wrong.

"Men just aren't viewed as sex objects in the same way that women are," Min says. "Women don't think about men being naked in the same way that men think about women."

Man, that's so much bullshit. George Clooney could get his gear off right damn now, please. Gimme some sugar, George! But he doesn't have to, to keep his fame and box office draw. Men have the power to attract and keep attention in the entertainment industry without taking their clothes off. Nudity devalues them in the system. Women are just devalued.

(Please not that I had a number of semi-naked men icons to choose from. A number. Not just one. More. Suck on that, Min.)

a) Bless you my child for bringing in the naked men.

b) I personally think women can be really, really sexy but the fact that Kiera and Scarlett are super scrawny and are porcelain-doll pale juxtaposed with the fully clothed Tom Ford, well, it doesn't exactly add up to sex for me.

Yes, I agree. There are plenty of women who are absolutely gorgeous in my eyes, but they don't have to be naked for me to appreciate them. All I see when I look at the cover of VF is two girls who could stand to eat a steak or two and spend some time in the garden.

Oh yes the ass shot. You feel my pain. It was all loathing from there on out.

Word on the two sides plus Spike makes movies I like and is not a Coppola and so I favor *g*.

Who doesn't know you have smart things to say? ♥

Dude! The power of me! Rock!

Ahem..

In precis:

Ha ha! I wrote this whole enraged post about that Vanity Fair shoot with lots of stabbity Tom Ford stabbity stabbity stab and then went meh! and decided I didn't want to send clicks to the site because then they would have succeeded in what they wanted - getting attention. My decision then was wrong.

I'm sorry I made you all grumpy, chicken, but after I'd posted the entry I was all, Gods, and how long will it be before people aren't making proper arguments and saying I was hating on the stick-figures and Hollywood and just didn't understand the *art*, and lo, I had a rage blackout. And then I got an e-mail or two and was like, fuck it, I can object to anything I want in my space, bring it.

"Women don't think about men being naked in the same way that men think about women."

I couldn't believe anybody would say something so fucking stupid, I almost stroked out. George Clooney doesn't even show his fucking forearms half the time, or any of the time, now that I think about it and yet everyone is lusting after his arse with no worries. Rachel McAdams has gotten nothing but greif because she decided she did want to spread her goodies all over VF, that's fucked up.

You know, I've never had Art History, and it was the first thing I thought of, too. Sometimes, a reinterpreted cliche? Still a cliche.

As for the belly-dancing, rock on with your bad self. My friend took me one time, and OMG that shit is so hard! I do yoga and I was still using muscles I didn't know existed.

Oh, totally. I'm currently trying to master the belly roll and moving my hips using my glutes.

I would totally want to read that.

Sadly, I think its moment has past, but srrsly - HE rips off HER top and SHE gets vilified? ::growls::

Aargh. I left out the bit about N'Sync. Anyone else notice that the bare chests disappeared when they got control over their own images? I haven't done the photo shoots timeline study, but it seems to me that once they'd kicked Lou to the kerb they stopped getting photographed with their shirts off. Okay, except for La Timberlake and that fabulous shoot Lance did. But check the issues that the fandom has with posting candids of JC without his shirt on these days.

And what about that duet between Nelly and Kelly Rowland where Nelly is wearing a family-size tent and Kelly is wearing a hankerchief (repeat and repeat, you R&B bastards)? Aren't they exposed to the same damn climate or what?

serialkarma's LJ waving photos of the (fully-dressed) BSG cast at a con panel and I said, this is not. Because, OMG, low-slung jeans and threadbare tee shirt? So hot. Total nudity? *shrugs* Depends. I think anticipation makes everything better, and if you give up all the goods at once? No anticipation.

Trouble is, they're hard to find, outside of LJ-land; instead you get gay beefcake, all shiny, overdeveloped waxed chests, just the exact parallel of all those hideous blonde girls with bouncy tits, waxed privates and collagen-implanted lips.

The quintessential skin mag is nothing about skin and all about photoshop.

Things are changing slightly, but I think women find it hard to admit this stuff is a turn-on, either because they're trying to distance themselves from sexist male attitudes, or because they're busy being grown-up and recommending new kinds of tinted moisturiser.

I suspect, at heart, it's all a matter of personal choice. I have no issue with telling one person that I find another person hot, men love it when I'm like, 'yeah, she's totally hot' not so much when I say another man is hot, but screw that, because if they can say it, so can I.

See, my problem with the Vanity Fair issue is not that the men were clothed and the women were naked. I am all in favor of Angelina Jolie taking off her clothes, and Tom Ford keeping his on. Really, all the people who were complaining about him being clothed on the cover, I just have to ask - did you *want* to see him naked? I think that overall, the people who were naked in the magazine were the people who looked better naked.

Which is not, of course what they were thinking when they decided that the women would be naked and the men wouldn't. They were thinking "people want to see women naked but not men." This is because the men they show us naked tend to be less attractive naked - which is the real problem.

In the movies, which is where a large number of people first see the naked form, women almost always look better naked than the men. Is it because women just look better naked than men do? Of course not. It's because in order to be movie stars, women are required to look good naked, and men are not. Sure, the men have to be attractive. Ewan McGregor? Hot as hell. Do I want to see him naked? Not unless we're having sex. I own Trainspotting and Velvet Goldmine, and while it was fun at first to see everything he's got to show, well, a flaccid penis is only so exciting. I think the hottest bit of Trainspotting is in the bar when Jonny Lee Miller's character passes a pilll to some girl on his tongue. Fully clothed, not touching her except for the arm around her shoulders and the barest graze of their tongues. And suddenly I might need a moment.

Kate Winslet, on the other hand? Smoking hot naked. She is one of those people who should just be naked all the time, at least in my mind.

Um, and I think I've gone off about that enough for now. Now to answer a few of your questions.

+ Nudity is empowering, yes, in some contexts. Whether it gives you a power you find useful or valuable is another thing entirely, but under certain circumstances, definitely empowering. For men as well as for women.

+ Janet Jackson got in trouble because the FCC has a great big giant stick up its ass. I don't think most people really think that badly of her for it, she just happened to get in a lot of trouble. Although people might be pissed off at her now for pushing that far and ruining it for the rest of them. Things are a lot more tightly controlled now than they were then, and she was a big part of making that happen. Which is ridiculous, but whatever. Another rant for another day.

+ A man in a film generally isn't considered naked unless his dick is showing, which is totally different from a woman showing her tits. To me, anyway. How many women do you see showing their twats in the movies? Female nudity doesn't generally include the genitals in Hollywood, and male nudity does.

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