Ari is not happy.

[hackthis_archive]

The other day I got what I originally thought was a flame, except upon a second third fifth read I realized it was just an opinion. The person liked the story, and found it well-written (go team hackthis!) but didn't like the gay aspect. Or didn't like the porn part.

Now considering that the disclaimer on my profile says "writer writes SLASH!" I was a little befuddled... but you know, the person thought the story was really good except for the slash part. To which I eventually just said, 'Uh... okay, opinions are like assholes. I can respect that.' And yet, all I've heard this morning is that people think there's only one asshole to go around. There is only one point of view and if you don't agree well then you are evol and should be fed for the Minotaur! For the sanitary sake of all, I hope there's truly more than one asshole opinion to go around, but one more time for the people in the back who have the craptastic acoustics:

Dissent is not disloyalty

Disagreeing with someone's views, whatever the fuck they are, does not automatically make them a bad person. We can all wish it did, but it doesn't. Dissent doesn't make you a good person either. Slinging hash and saying that someone is a horrible no-good very bad person behind locked posts, because you're not going to step up and say it to their faces? Weak. So weak.

What really tears it though, is that it's really just one or two people that piss in the pool* and then everybody has to get out and wash off, and parents are upset and threatening litigation, and you know, that's just not the spirit we came here in. I thought the whole point of this social experiment called fandom was to bring the people who disagree and the people who agree and the people who don't give a fuck (normally, that would be me) together, so we can all hug it out and talk about the porn and give ponies and have a good time.

Can't we just kick it old skool, or what?


*If you want someone to piss on you, I have a friend that knows this ace dominatrix who can do it for a very reasonable price.


+ I dun forgot, I posted music the other day for the September Frankenstein Mix, in case anybody's feeling the need for some tunes.

++ I found this posting by amezri on fandom and forums and acting like you have brain which I enjoyed reading. *gacked from voleuse

Comments

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

I guess we'll don't really know what the reviewer said unless we actually read the review. But, I must say that I kind of understand the idea, and think it is a compliment to the author's skill. Why? Well, the reader obviously don't like m/m pairings, yet ze enjoyed the fic enough not only to read it but also to comment on it AND let the writer know that ze didn't agree with parts of it.

Isn't this a statement to what a fine piece it was, as it made said reader overcome the expected reluctance? People like ze are the opposite to slash fans who love any slash work just because it is ... well, slash. Yes, OMG, that was hot!!!!!!!!!11 makes any writer feel proud, but I liked this even if I usually don't read this pairing is much better, in a way.

Of course, if ze asked (or worst, demanded) for the author to change the pairing, then a shrug and a pat are entitled.

But yes; I don't think this reviews should be called complains. If anything, they show two things, and one I've already said: the writer's talent; this means that, were she to write a gen story (not that she needs to), many people will find it enjoyable, including those who typically don't pay attention to her work.

And second? Well, I find this kind of reviews pretty refreshing, as long as they don't turn into flames, because they are testament of the reviewer's maturity and open-mindedness. Slash is not only for slashers to enjoy, and people who is brave and willing enough to cross the line should be encouraged, not shunned.

After all, reviews should not only be used to deliver flowers. It is always good to receive commentaries from people who is able to look past the shinny!slash factor, and look directly into things like plot, story flow, scenary, wording and the long etcetera that also are part of a fic.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I replied to this, but the comment seems to have been eaten. To make a long story short, I fundamentally agree with you said, however, I think it works both ways. Of course everyone wants to be told they're fabulous and that their story was brilliant, and yes, solid reviews are cherished, but one fan doesn't count more than another.

If you're going to read a story that's marked as m/m and then say you enjoyed it, but had problems with it being male/male, then you have to be prepared for the writer to say, um, what? As much as writers may want people of all types to read their stories, I hardly think it's shunning someone to wonder why they would read a story, or finish a story, that they object to on some principal.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that we're just speculating since we don't have the actual text of the review or reviews that Aphelant and Hackthis are talking about. But my interpretation of what they said is pretty clearly not the same as yours. [wry smile]

I'm not getting that the commenter said, "I don't usually read slash but I liked this." I agree with you that this sort of comment is a compliment and a rather rare one -- I've left comments like this myself. "I don't usually like femslash but I enjoyed this," or "I'm not really into this fandom but I liked this story," or "I don't really think Joe Celeb is very attractive, but the way you wrote this it was pretty hot and I liked him." Yeah, that's a compliment and I always mean it to be and I appreciate it when readers leave this sort of comment to one of my stories.

But what they're talking about was different. They said, "This is really good, too bad it's slash," and "I liked the story, it's just a shame about the characters." And Aphelant has seen a comment where the person asked the writer to rewrite a slash story with a het pairing. These are backhanded compliments at best, and pretty damn self-centered. If someone says, "This is really good, too bad it's slash," they're not saying the story was good enough to make them like the slash factor. They're saying they liked, say, the plot, maybe the dialogue, the writers' craftsmanship -- which yeah, is a compliment -- but the slash, the m/m romance which I have to assume was a major component of the story, still turned them off. What possible purpose could such a comment serve?

If I say in a comment, "I enjoyed the story and liked what you did with the characters, even though you have some craftsmanship issues," I mean that as a reasonably subtle way of telling the writer that although I enjoyed the story, 1) they need to work on a few things like spelling, punctuation, grammar, word usage, etc., and 2) that if they express some interest in their response to my comment I'm willing to help them with it. If someone is misspelling things, or hasn't figured out what commas are for, or doesn't know the difference between the past tense and the past participle, or is using words they pretty clearly don't know the meaning of, those are objective faults -- not just my opinion but errors which anyone knowledgeable would agree are errors -- and a writer who's interested in the quality of his or her work and who wants to improve as a writer would be eager to fix them.

If someone says, "I liked the story, it's just a shame about the characters" then what's the point of that? Using the "wrong" characters isn't a mistake; this is purely a matter of opinion on the part of the person leaving the comment, whether they object to the genders of the characters or to the specific characters as individuals. Saying a writer used the "wrong" characters is expressing a personal opinion, not pointing out an objective fault. It'd be as though someone who didn't like cowboy stories had read a cowboy story and then said, "Liked the characters, interesting plot, good writing, but I didn't like that it was a cowboy story." :/ You might as well say, "Good story, too bad it was fanfiction." Or read a romance and say, "I liked the writing and the characters but it would've been better without all the mushy stuff." Or go into Taco Bell and then complain that it's too bad all they have is Mexican food. You know?

It's one thing if you think you can help a writer correct a problem -- something which is objectively a problem, like not knowing how to use semicolons -- but complaining about something which is a matter of your own personal taste is completely pointless. It does nothing to help the writer and because of that, it's by definition not constructive. Constructive criticism is gold -- I love it and I wish I got more of it. But "I don't like the genre you're writing" is not constructive because it's not something the writer will or should "fix."

Angie

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

"I liked the writing and the characters but it would've been better without all the mushy stuff."

The 'it would've been better' part, yeah. Sadly, some people don't seem to understand that phrases like 'I believe', 'I think' and 'in my opinion', to name a few, are needed when giving, well, personal opinions.

And maybe I did the same mistake. Probably the line should had been 'I think it can be seen, under certain circumstances, as a compliment to the author's skills'.

I understand what you say and completely agree with it; because, in fact, the scenario you work with is the opposite to the one I used. Both kind of readers -and reviewers- exist, and it is important not to confuse them. But I'm not sure I share your opinion regarding subjective complains.

Okay, sure, pointless they are. But completely? From what hackthis said, it could be seen as an opinion. Opinions can be shared without a war developing: 'you think this, I think the opposite; now we both know, so shrug and lets move to the next thing'.

Annoying and time consuming yet not completely pointless.

Now, just let me clarify I do not equal subjective complains with flames. The last ones are, without a doubt, a waste of resources and brain cells. The problem, I think, is that the review that started this positively looks like a flame, so much that many reads were needed to discover it apparently isn't.

But you know what? Every writer, reader and reviewer is different to the next. I know a girl who stopped writing because the first review she received pointed certain grammatical problems in her story. And then there was this author who had a fit because other authors commented in a forum that they didn't liked the way she used a pairing. It was an opinion, polite, clean, clear and not linked to her story, yet she saw a flame in it.

Fortunately, things worked fine after people talked, as the reviewer and forum users promptly made the writers know it was not a personal attack and it was not their intention to hurt their feelings, (it is a small fandom, so it feels like a family sometimes).

I just shake my head and click my tongue, but that's because I list myself under that 'those who not give a fuck' category earlier mentioned [another wry smile].

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

People like ze are the opposite to slash fans who love any slash work just because it is ... well, slash.

I'm going to have to very much disagree with this statement. I think you're not giving enough credit to the readers or the writers here. I'm sure there are plenty of people who love slash because it's slash, but that's certainly not the only enjoyment. I can only speak for myself here, but the majority of my enjoyment with fan fiction is that the authors generally seem to like the characters and want them to be happy and well fleshed out. I could've just as easily written a story with no sex, but I didn't because I wanted it there. I don't think it lessens the story in any way, if you do that's your opinion, but I don't have to subscribe to it.

Slash is written primarily for other slash fans. If other people like it, I'm thrilled, as I'm sure other writers are as well, but I'm not going to look at something I've written and say, "Oh, well I better change it to appeal to more people just because." I do this out of love, not for profit or mass market. I'm not going to change what I love, just to make someone else feel better about it.

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

First, sorry because I'm replying two days late. Second, I'll reply both your comments here, okay?

I apologize if my words seemed to imply I believed one fan (reviewer, reader) counts more/less than another. To me, they are all at the same level and place: in my secret, golden shrine ;9. BUT, and this is my personal opinion, their reviews are different to me. Helpful and detailed reviews are the ones I cherish the most; even if I admit that when I open my email account and there is a new message in my review's folder, the warm feeling is always the same.

I also apologize about the credit thing you pointed. I've read crap just because it is from an specific fandom, pairing or writer, and I certainly DO NOT believe that every slash reader has only one thing in mind. I think another person earlier stated that the slash genre has some of the best writers, something I agree with. It is not a wonder, then, that many people enjoys reading their stories.

Now, the thing about slash being primary written for slash fans? I liked that you used 'primarily' and not 'only'. Politics, science, scifi, slash, chick flicks; everybody should be allowed to, now and then, try things they usually do not. And no, no, no, a fiction writer who changes his/her story with the only purpose of pleasing people and getting more readers is in risk of corrupting his/her art (work?).

But now you know that in the future you can try a different genre, even if you chose not to.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

But now you know that in the future you can try a different genre, even if you chose not to.

I've always known I can, that was never an issue, I (like a lot of writers I know) just choose not to because this is the medium I prefer.