Ari is not happy.

[hackthis_archive]

The other day I got what I originally thought was a flame, except upon a second third fifth read I realized it was just an opinion. The person liked the story, and found it well-written (go team hackthis!) but didn't like the gay aspect. Or didn't like the porn part.

Now considering that the disclaimer on my profile says "writer writes SLASH!" I was a little befuddled... but you know, the person thought the story was really good except for the slash part. To which I eventually just said, 'Uh... okay, opinions are like assholes. I can respect that.' And yet, all I've heard this morning is that people think there's only one asshole to go around. There is only one point of view and if you don't agree well then you are evol and should be fed for the Minotaur! For the sanitary sake of all, I hope there's truly more than one asshole opinion to go around, but one more time for the people in the back who have the craptastic acoustics:

Dissent is not disloyalty

Disagreeing with someone's views, whatever the fuck they are, does not automatically make them a bad person. We can all wish it did, but it doesn't. Dissent doesn't make you a good person either. Slinging hash and saying that someone is a horrible no-good very bad person behind locked posts, because you're not going to step up and say it to their faces? Weak. So weak.

What really tears it though, is that it's really just one or two people that piss in the pool* and then everybody has to get out and wash off, and parents are upset and threatening litigation, and you know, that's just not the spirit we came here in. I thought the whole point of this social experiment called fandom was to bring the people who disagree and the people who agree and the people who don't give a fuck (normally, that would be me) together, so we can all hug it out and talk about the porn and give ponies and have a good time.

Can't we just kick it old skool, or what?


*If you want someone to piss on you, I have a friend that knows this ace dominatrix who can do it for a very reasonable price.


+ I dun forgot, I posted music the other day for the September Frankenstein Mix, in case anybody's feeling the need for some tunes.

++ I found this posting by amezri on fandom and forums and acting like you have brain which I enjoyed reading. *gacked from voleuse

Comments

[chinawolf.livejournal.com]

But has it really changed that much? I've only been around fandom for five years, most of it on LJ in addition to other communities etc., but I have friends who have been in fandom for 25+ years and say that it's always been the same, the internet in general only made interaction faster, but not different. Do you think that's not true?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

You know, I wasn't sure I wanted to leave that point in when I first posted, but yeah, your right. I expect what I was trying to say is that the internet has brought everyone so close that maybe we're all a little too close. I feel like it used to be you (generic) had to be a little bit more... succinct with what you say. Now you automatically hit send or comment after typing in 'YOU SUCK!' where before you'd have to take a moment to compose what you want to say, and then, by the time you're done, you didn't even give a crap anymore. Everything's bigger and faster, but maybe not necessarily better. Does that make sense at all? Sometimes I have issues with staying on topic.

[shoewhore.livejournal.com]

What?! You're crazy! That is BULLSHIT!! I SO don't even agree with that!

There is no way that the internet is not full of passive agressive assholes who think that having an "opinion" means only having THEIR opinion! No way... Never happens! I vehemently disagree!!

You suck, your writing sucks and I hate everything that you do... What, am I not allowed to have an opinion?!?!

(Oh my gosh, I am so fucking funny, I KILL me!)

PS - Long live Ari... I still can't believe the fucking season finale... Especially when I was watching the episode not REALIZING it was the season finale. I was very confoosled! Heh.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

HI, BABY111!!!!!1!!111

Also, whatever there is only MY opinion bitches.

PS - Long live Ari... I still can't believe the fucking season finale... Especially when I was watching the episode not REALIZING it was the season finale. I was very confoosled! Heh.

I nearly had an aneurysm until I was reminded that they split season two, because this season there TWENTY FOUR EPISODES! OMGWTFYAYE!!! And so the second half of the season will be up in the spring following Teh Sopranos. Excited much?

[shoewhore.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh, TOTALLY excited! I started watching that fucking show the night it premiered and although the first couple of episodes were a tiny bit slow, I knew that they were on to something. And god bless Jeremy Piven for finally getting the PERFECT role for him. I've always loved that fucking man (PCU, anyone?! "GUTTER IS A TOOL! GUTTER IS A TOOL!!") and thought he was way funnier than anyone ever gave him credit for. Oh, and I *heart* Lloyd way more than I ever dug the blonde chick from the OC that couldn't act her way out of a wet paperbag aided by a straight razor. Seriously. Much suck (in MY opinion, of course!).

Thank god for HBO In Demand... I'm going to have to watch some old episodes to curb my withdrawals while I wait for the new episodes!

PS - The only thing I didn't like about the ending of that finale is well... HELLO! You know that Ari ain't fucking going ANYWHERE.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

If Entertainment Weekly ever does a list of the top 50 college movies and doesntlist PCU in at least the top 25, there will be enragement. And meat will be thrown.

[shoewhore.livejournal.com]

You throw the meat... I'll steal the disc!! ;)

[sparky77.livejournal.com]

So is this the appropiate place to gain acceptance for my Orlando Bloom love?

And also, Yes! I love arguing about stupid shit. It's fun, but I always get the impression that in fandom, if I disagree with someone it equals not liking them. I guess it's because in fandom people are often not defined by who they are, but by what they like, so any disagreements end up equalling personal attacks. It's all just kind of exhausting and I wish we could all just roll around in the mud and have a good time.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I am against the Orlando Bloom, but I respect your right to think he can act or you know do anything except tie his shoes :D


I always get the impression that in fandom, if I disagree with someone it equals not liking them. I guess it's because in fandom people are often not defined by who they are, but by what they like, so any disagreements end up equalling personal attacks. It's all just kind of exhausting and I wish we could all just roll around in the mud and have a good time.

1) WORD.
2) MUD!!!!!

[sparky77.livejournal.com]

He can act - http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14787930/ - msnbc says so. And would the media every lie or distort the truth?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Gasp. Wheeze. Choke.

[sparky77.livejournal.com]

My wisdom has obviously left you speechless.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Riiiiight.

[shoewhore.livejournal.com]

Who needs him to be able to act?! Or even speak, for that matter.

I just want him to stand there and look pretty (which, is basically what he does, ain't it?).

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Then why aren't we getting paid for that too?

[shoewhore.livejournal.com]

As per usual... You make a damn fine point.

[amberlynne.livejournal.com]

Okay, but if people have stupid bad wrong opinions, it's okay to judge them, right? RIGHT?!?!

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I didn't say you couldn't judge somebody else, sweetie, everybody's does that every time they walk out the front door. I'm just saying that if you do it, you should own up to it. Like for example, if somebody called me a racist name I'd tell them to their face to fuck off and die and that I hope they catch the bubonic plague. In my eyes it will never ever be right, but for years on end, people have said racism is wrong unless you're being racist against X (Jews, blacks, Japanese, any sort of immigrant class). Right now that X is illegal immigrants, but I think it's just wrong full stop. And I'll tell you that straight up, some people will say it is, but they won't say it out loud. I think if you think it you might as well own it.

Was that coherant, baby? I tend to be tangential.

[amberlynne.livejournal.com]

Oh oh oh. Yes. That makes sense. Phew. I thought I couldn't tell people they were stupid anymore. And that was making me sad. ;)

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Of course you can! I know you live to do that anyway, you hardly need my blessing.

[amberlynne.livejournal.com]

It does bring me joy. And the supply of stupid people is endless!

[ethrosdemon.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have a LOT of meta about the old timers vs the new kids on this one. They just don't know how to behave, baby. Obviously, you know I feel you here. In a big way.

But, hey, you know what? Jadon Momoa is still hot and there's always whiskey.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

They just don't know how to behave, baby.

Remember when you used to get your hand slapped if you reached out of turn or spoke with your mouth full? Man, what happened?

Whiskey. Ah, whiskey.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I would completely understand, but my disclaimer is pretty much five year-old understandable: Disclaimer. This journal contains fan fiction/nattering about male/male relationships of a sexual nature.

Not even m/m, but male/male I can't make it any clearer without putting up video clips up ;)

[aphelant.livejournal.com]

This is not the first I've heard of comments along the lines of: "This is really good, too bad it's slash". Sometimes they even ask the writer to redo the fic in a het pairing.

Um?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

This isn't even the first time I've had that sort of comment though. It's like "I liked the story, it's just a shame about the characters" type of thing, and as writer you're like The Hell? Why did you even read it then?

[aphelant.livejournal.com]

I heard a theory that people do this to make the writer think they should switch pairings. Like, if you only write John/Rodney, they can somehow manage to coerce you into becoming a John/Elizabeth writer. Or something like that.

Something about all the good writers being slash writers, and how it isn't *fair* to the rest of the fandom...?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I've watched a grand total of 45 minutes of SGA (that's being extremely generous, maybe more like 30 min),* and all I've gathered of Weir is a sort of shapeless silly-puddy type of character. Not even the Playdoh/plasticine type of thing, but like that cheap no-name stuff that you got if you were really bad in school.


*This does not include vids naturally

[aphelant.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHA!!

Oh, man! IT'S SO TRUE. The writers have, until recently, made the character pretty damn lifeless. But they're doing her justice this season, and she's far less of a 'mom', and...yeah.

THIS IMAGE IS BURNED INTO MY EYELIDS.

I will look back on seasons 1&2 and remember this. :)

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

My work here is done.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

See, what I don't understand about this kind of reaction (aside from the why did you read this if you don't like the main characters issue) is how someone can even have that reaction to a story they liked. [blinkblink] I mean, sure, there are some popular characters in my fandom whom I don't find terribly attractive. I skip over stories about Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan on my Flist 'cause although they seem to be nice guys and fun and whatever all else, they don't do anything for me and when you're reading porn that's a big part of it. But I've read stories with an ensemble cast (including guys I do find attractive) where the writer was good enough to make me like Billy and/or Dom. If one of those writers wrote a sequel that was focused on Billy and/or Dom, I'd read it because they'd already proved they could get me to enjoy reading about those characters.

And I'd certainly never write to them to grouch about the appearance of character I'm not usually fond of in one of their ensemble pieces, especially if I'd enjoyed it. And if I somehow found myself reading a story that was just about Billy and Dom (no clue how I'd have gotten there, but these folks who've grouched at you about your characters obviously had some back door they could slip in through without having read the address on the front of the house) I certainly wouldn't read all the way through and then send a note of complaint. If I wasn't enjoying it then I'd back-button out and that'd be that. And if I was enjoying it then why would I complain about the characters? If I liked the story then I liked the story. [bemused headshake] I seriously don't get these people.

Angie

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

I guess we'll don't really know what the reviewer said unless we actually read the review. But, I must say that I kind of understand the idea, and think it is a compliment to the author's skill. Why? Well, the reader obviously don't like m/m pairings, yet ze enjoyed the fic enough not only to read it but also to comment on it AND let the writer know that ze didn't agree with parts of it.

Isn't this a statement to what a fine piece it was, as it made said reader overcome the expected reluctance? People like ze are the opposite to slash fans who love any slash work just because it is ... well, slash. Yes, OMG, that was hot!!!!!!!!!11 makes any writer feel proud, but I liked this even if I usually don't read this pairing is much better, in a way.

Of course, if ze asked (or worst, demanded) for the author to change the pairing, then a shrug and a pat are entitled.

But yes; I don't think this reviews should be called complains. If anything, they show two things, and one I've already said: the writer's talent; this means that, were she to write a gen story (not that she needs to), many people will find it enjoyable, including those who typically don't pay attention to her work.

And second? Well, I find this kind of reviews pretty refreshing, as long as they don't turn into flames, because they are testament of the reviewer's maturity and open-mindedness. Slash is not only for slashers to enjoy, and people who is brave and willing enough to cross the line should be encouraged, not shunned.

After all, reviews should not only be used to deliver flowers. It is always good to receive commentaries from people who is able to look past the shinny!slash factor, and look directly into things like plot, story flow, scenary, wording and the long etcetera that also are part of a fic.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I replied to this, but the comment seems to have been eaten. To make a long story short, I fundamentally agree with you said, however, I think it works both ways. Of course everyone wants to be told they're fabulous and that their story was brilliant, and yes, solid reviews are cherished, but one fan doesn't count more than another.

If you're going to read a story that's marked as m/m and then say you enjoyed it, but had problems with it being male/male, then you have to be prepared for the writer to say, um, what? As much as writers may want people of all types to read their stories, I hardly think it's shunning someone to wonder why they would read a story, or finish a story, that they object to on some principal.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that we're just speculating since we don't have the actual text of the review or reviews that Aphelant and Hackthis are talking about. But my interpretation of what they said is pretty clearly not the same as yours. [wry smile]

I'm not getting that the commenter said, "I don't usually read slash but I liked this." I agree with you that this sort of comment is a compliment and a rather rare one -- I've left comments like this myself. "I don't usually like femslash but I enjoyed this," or "I'm not really into this fandom but I liked this story," or "I don't really think Joe Celeb is very attractive, but the way you wrote this it was pretty hot and I liked him." Yeah, that's a compliment and I always mean it to be and I appreciate it when readers leave this sort of comment to one of my stories.

But what they're talking about was different. They said, "This is really good, too bad it's slash," and "I liked the story, it's just a shame about the characters." And Aphelant has seen a comment where the person asked the writer to rewrite a slash story with a het pairing. These are backhanded compliments at best, and pretty damn self-centered. If someone says, "This is really good, too bad it's slash," they're not saying the story was good enough to make them like the slash factor. They're saying they liked, say, the plot, maybe the dialogue, the writers' craftsmanship -- which yeah, is a compliment -- but the slash, the m/m romance which I have to assume was a major component of the story, still turned them off. What possible purpose could such a comment serve?

If I say in a comment, "I enjoyed the story and liked what you did with the characters, even though you have some craftsmanship issues," I mean that as a reasonably subtle way of telling the writer that although I enjoyed the story, 1) they need to work on a few things like spelling, punctuation, grammar, word usage, etc., and 2) that if they express some interest in their response to my comment I'm willing to help them with it. If someone is misspelling things, or hasn't figured out what commas are for, or doesn't know the difference between the past tense and the past participle, or is using words they pretty clearly don't know the meaning of, those are objective faults -- not just my opinion but errors which anyone knowledgeable would agree are errors -- and a writer who's interested in the quality of his or her work and who wants to improve as a writer would be eager to fix them.

If someone says, "I liked the story, it's just a shame about the characters" then what's the point of that? Using the "wrong" characters isn't a mistake; this is purely a matter of opinion on the part of the person leaving the comment, whether they object to the genders of the characters or to the specific characters as individuals. Saying a writer used the "wrong" characters is expressing a personal opinion, not pointing out an objective fault. It'd be as though someone who didn't like cowboy stories had read a cowboy story and then said, "Liked the characters, interesting plot, good writing, but I didn't like that it was a cowboy story." :/ You might as well say, "Good story, too bad it was fanfiction." Or read a romance and say, "I liked the writing and the characters but it would've been better without all the mushy stuff." Or go into Taco Bell and then complain that it's too bad all they have is Mexican food. You know?

It's one thing if you think you can help a writer correct a problem -- something which is objectively a problem, like not knowing how to use semicolons -- but complaining about something which is a matter of your own personal taste is completely pointless. It does nothing to help the writer and because of that, it's by definition not constructive. Constructive criticism is gold -- I love it and I wish I got more of it. But "I don't like the genre you're writing" is not constructive because it's not something the writer will or should "fix."

Angie

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

"I liked the writing and the characters but it would've been better without all the mushy stuff."

The 'it would've been better' part, yeah. Sadly, some people don't seem to understand that phrases like 'I believe', 'I think' and 'in my opinion', to name a few, are needed when giving, well, personal opinions.

And maybe I did the same mistake. Probably the line should had been 'I think it can be seen, under certain circumstances, as a compliment to the author's skills'.

I understand what you say and completely agree with it; because, in fact, the scenario you work with is the opposite to the one I used. Both kind of readers -and reviewers- exist, and it is important not to confuse them. But I'm not sure I share your opinion regarding subjective complains.

Okay, sure, pointless they are. But completely? From what hackthis said, it could be seen as an opinion. Opinions can be shared without a war developing: 'you think this, I think the opposite; now we both know, so shrug and lets move to the next thing'.

Annoying and time consuming yet not completely pointless.

Now, just let me clarify I do not equal subjective complains with flames. The last ones are, without a doubt, a waste of resources and brain cells. The problem, I think, is that the review that started this positively looks like a flame, so much that many reads were needed to discover it apparently isn't.

But you know what? Every writer, reader and reviewer is different to the next. I know a girl who stopped writing because the first review she received pointed certain grammatical problems in her story. And then there was this author who had a fit because other authors commented in a forum that they didn't liked the way she used a pairing. It was an opinion, polite, clean, clear and not linked to her story, yet she saw a flame in it.

Fortunately, things worked fine after people talked, as the reviewer and forum users promptly made the writers know it was not a personal attack and it was not their intention to hurt their feelings, (it is a small fandom, so it feels like a family sometimes).

I just shake my head and click my tongue, but that's because I list myself under that 'those who not give a fuck' category earlier mentioned [another wry smile].

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

People like ze are the opposite to slash fans who love any slash work just because it is ... well, slash.

I'm going to have to very much disagree with this statement. I think you're not giving enough credit to the readers or the writers here. I'm sure there are plenty of people who love slash because it's slash, but that's certainly not the only enjoyment. I can only speak for myself here, but the majority of my enjoyment with fan fiction is that the authors generally seem to like the characters and want them to be happy and well fleshed out. I could've just as easily written a story with no sex, but I didn't because I wanted it there. I don't think it lessens the story in any way, if you do that's your opinion, but I don't have to subscribe to it.

Slash is written primarily for other slash fans. If other people like it, I'm thrilled, as I'm sure other writers are as well, but I'm not going to look at something I've written and say, "Oh, well I better change it to appeal to more people just because." I do this out of love, not for profit or mass market. I'm not going to change what I love, just to make someone else feel better about it.

[jerico-cacaw.livejournal.com]

First, sorry because I'm replying two days late. Second, I'll reply both your comments here, okay?

I apologize if my words seemed to imply I believed one fan (reviewer, reader) counts more/less than another. To me, they are all at the same level and place: in my secret, golden shrine ;9. BUT, and this is my personal opinion, their reviews are different to me. Helpful and detailed reviews are the ones I cherish the most; even if I admit that when I open my email account and there is a new message in my review's folder, the warm feeling is always the same.

I also apologize about the credit thing you pointed. I've read crap just because it is from an specific fandom, pairing or writer, and I certainly DO NOT believe that every slash reader has only one thing in mind. I think another person earlier stated that the slash genre has some of the best writers, something I agree with. It is not a wonder, then, that many people enjoys reading their stories.

Now, the thing about slash being primary written for slash fans? I liked that you used 'primarily' and not 'only'. Politics, science, scifi, slash, chick flicks; everybody should be allowed to, now and then, try things they usually do not. And no, no, no, a fiction writer who changes his/her story with the only purpose of pleasing people and getting more readers is in risk of corrupting his/her art (work?).

But now you know that in the future you can try a different genre, even if you chose not to.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

But now you know that in the future you can try a different genre, even if you chose not to.

I've always known I can, that was never an issue, I (like a lot of writers I know) just choose not to because this is the medium I prefer.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

[Here from metafandom. [wave]]

Fannish feuds have a very long history, unfortunately, dating back to when people were flaming each other via the Postal Service or in the letter columns of various magazines and fanzines. If you think about it, online fans are a bunch of pikers at this -- it takes a serious jerk to maintain the white heat of sarcastic loathing over a period of months or years in a zine lettercol. [wry smile]

And for what it's worth, I'm with you. I'll argue my points until my fingers fall off and do my absolute best to convince people to agree with me about whatever, but when we've all aired our views and it turns out that some people still disagree with me? That's cool. I'd love it if the whole world agreed with me all the time, but I don't require it. My friends and I agree to disagree about this or that issue on a fairly regular basis and it doesn't mean we're not friends anymore. I feel kind of sorry for people who can only be friends with people who agree with them all the time about everything -- how boring, for one, and how incredibly limiting for another. I can't imagine they have many friends, or that they keep any given friend for all that long, because any two people are going to disagree about something eventually. The trick is realizing that that's OK.

Angie

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I whole-heartedly agree with everything you said.