OMGWTF it's attack of the meta.

[hackthis_archive]

theantimodel was postulating on giving authors criticism, constructive or otherwise, and why some authors just can't stand the heat in the kitchen. I started writing an answer, which then degenerated into much thoughtfulness that should not be happening so soon after holiday.


I have, what I think, are some of the best betas ever -- but hopefully all writers feel this way about the people who help them better their writing. That doesn't mean, however, that we're not human, and therefore, immune to mistakes. Grammar, spelling, the wrong word in the wrong place, and the comma thing, well, I never liked that unit in school anyway (this puts serialkarma in fits on a regular basis).

Regardless, I know that my stories are not perfect. I know that they never will be. I know that my stories will inevitably have a word in the wrong place or a punctuation mark on the wrong side of a word, or something to this affect. I know this. I have accepted this. I have tried to fix this, but some shit is inevitable, and I am not fastidious enough to go back through every story I've ever written and right these wrongs.

There are some people who do this; I'm not one of them.

I write for content and clarity, but I'm not a copy editor. Semi-colons are not my strong point, but I like to think that my characters are, and they're more important to me than whether or not I put two spaces after the full stop or three. This doesn't mean I want my stories to be full of POV issues or historical snafus. If I make a glaring error, you can call me on it, but like pretty much every other person in existence, I prefer to be treated the way I treat other people. That means if I don’t go around rudely telling you you're dressed like a slapper or like a colour-blind manky git, don't do the same to me.

Have manners. They're free.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm never satisfied with a story and even after posting will continue to edit sentences and find wording errors. Sometimes I add whole sentences or change paragraphs completely, and I'm always tweaking my endings. My stories are always a work in progress, but sometimes when I think something's done and dusted, it stings to hear someone say, "Yeah, regardless of whatever masterpiece you think you have going on, I see you splattered paint in the wrong place."

IMO, delivery has a lot to do with how people perceive constructive criticism, or criticism in general. You don't have to like what I do, it doesn't make it wrong, it just makes it different, and different is not a four-letter word, no matter what anyone tells you.

Mary Poppins sang that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, and I'm not saying you should have to soothe a writer's ego before you tell them that they're walking around with their flies open, but I'm saying that it doesn't hurt. This doesn't mean that if I put crack instead of cock, for frakking sake, you can't just tell me. But -- if you're going to roll up and say 'I think your characterisation sucks!' you're going to have to at least tell me why you feel this way, and it helps if you tells me what does work for you so that I've got some sort of barometer to judge it by.

At the end of the day, I believe that what makes a story work isn't your spelling or your commas, but I do think they are good to have.

I think betas are even better to have.

I think that authors should put their best writing foot forward, and I think that they should be respected for it, but I also know that respect has to be earned.

I know that you're only as good as the people who support you and make you try harder.

So if your goal in nit-picking an author is to support them and make them better, more power to you. If your goal is to be annoying fucker who just wants the attention and hasn't got anything better to do – get a life.


In more joyous news, Happy Birthday to the most fatabulous and lovely estrella30. It is a honour to be around your infectuous enthusiasm and I'm so pleased to know you. I wish you many, many happy returns of the day, sweetie.*

*I heard you have discovered the wonder that is Entourage. Let's hug it out, bitch!

Comments

[serialkarma.livejournal.com]

(this puts serialkarma in fits on a regular basis).

I see it's let's poke fun at SK's grammatical issues day! That's all right. I can take it.

No, really! It's just fine! See if I care!

[plumtastic.livejournal.com]

We both torture you regularly with it, so it only seems logical. Or maybe not.

Whatever. I think your efforts are finally doing some good. *g*

[serialkarma.livejournal.com]

I think your efforts are finally doing some good.

Yes, clearly Hugh is learning by example!

*cackles*

[plumtastic.livejournal.com]

Hee! Now if only we could introduce him to the shift key.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

You pick at us, but you sekritly love it. If you didn't, you'd never come around here with an icon that says commas are for pussies. Just saying.

[serialkarma.livejournal.com]

*sulks*

it's not as much fun when you friends know you too well!

[plumtastic.livejournal.com]

That I made for her! She really does love it, and us, and Wentworth...

Okay, maybe that's just us, but I'm seriously distracted by that icon.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

He's the hottest thing since habanero peppers.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Okay, your icon's killing me.

[psycho-llama.livejournal.com]

Yours is a Summary Executions thing isn't it? *loves*

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Exactly! With ildi_bp art!

[plumtastic.livejournal.com]

Have manners. They're free.

Word. That's one annoyance about LJ fic posting (for me, at least) -- people seem to forget the idea of doing certain things in private.

Not surprisingly, I'm with you 100% on this.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

That's one annoyance about LJ fic posting (for me, at least) -- people seem to forget the idea of doing certain things in private.


This sentence makes no sense to me, sweetie, is there a word missing?

[plumtastic.livejournal.com]

Er. Okay, it was supposed to convey the idea of Drive By Crit. Those that just post to say, "The phone was red, not blue." or "You mispelled such and such!" But generally is missing any ounce of tact.

Or possibly this type of phenom is limited to myself.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, the drive-by call-out. I get that one too. I know exactly what you mean.

did I see someone mention Entourage?

[daraq.livejournal.com]

Why isn't everyone talking about this show? I think you're the only other person I know who watches. Kevin Connelly said in an interview that it's required viewing for LA residents and I miss LA so much right now. :-(

I've been mad for Entourage since the first episode and this season has been even better than the first. Character development!!! What show has that, for goodness sake?! Believable (well, sorta) plots! Johnny Drama's vulnerability, E's titanium balls, the ever-lovely Vince, Turtle's morph into a real character, Malcolm McDowell, Emmanuelle Chriqui, Debi Mazur, Mandy Moore, Melinda Clarke and, my favorite non-slashy couple on tv, Ari and Lloyd. I love this show and am already in mourning over next Sunday's season finale.

How are you? I hope all is well and that you're having a fabulous summer. All the best, D

Re: did I see someone mention Entourage?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

HI!! *does silent squee*

I'm well. The City of Fallen Morals is well, too. Hotter than hell though, I woke up the other morning sweating. Seriously. Naturally, Entourage is required viewing here, I reckon residents make up 85% of the audience. The rest are Jeremy Piven fans. As for writing abotu the show, well, how can you not? Ari was always comedy gold, but Eric's totally gotten himself some brass balls this season. I haven't even had anything to write about he's so capable. I did write for S1 though, and I have a dream that someday, someone else out there will realise what a fucking cracking show this is and write for it as well.

[cyanei.livejournal.com]

If I'm walking around with my fly open, I expect to be told in the most direct manner possible.

Honestly, I spend a lot of time worrying about my fly. I don't think anyone's noticed, but I do a lot of little surruptitious zipper-checks throughout the day. I'm always wondering if it looks like I'm grabbing my crotch all the time.

In fact, it probably does. Which explains some things about my reputation.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

*snicker*

[psycho-llama.livejournal.com]

Ahaha! Nice.

See, my favourite pair of pants actually has a broken fly. I spend my entire day pulling the damn thing back up. My reputation is pretty much shot, especially at work!

[oxoniensis.livejournal.com]

There are rules for commas? Really?

Ooops.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've never seen any such thing. It's all mythical to me, but SK insists that there are rules and the like. I, for one, am quite dubious.

[murklins.livejournal.com]

I've been reading a bit about the beta reading process today, not because I think I could ever really offer much in the way of helpful feedback to any writers, but because I've been reading some stories lately that the authors have obviously put a lot of thought into and I'm sure that being able to think more analytically would help me better appreciate those stories. Plus I'm in a bookclub in RL and I want to sound smart. :)

A lot of what you said reminded me of Not Just Talking to the Monitor: an Examination of Beta Reading (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp102.html) by Sharakh. While simply commenting on a story is not the same as beta reading it, if someone ventures into criticism in that comment, the axiom of "Be polite. Be balanced. Be honest. In that order." ought to be applied. Because if you are some random stranger popping in to dole out your wisdom, then don't you want the author to be receptive?

So yeah, manners, I totally agree.

I very rarely give less than completely positive feedback on stories that I read online. After all, I'm reading for free and I'm not the author's beta reader, plus I'm not a writer myself nor even a particularly astute reader so what business have I running around with a big red pen? I realize, though, that the few times I've given any somewhat critical feedback, I've emailed the authors privately about my concerns rather than posting a public comment. It feels really wrong to me to criticize a writer in front of other people. But now I'm wondering if I'm denying other readers the chance to defend the work as it stands and preventing the author from receiving a less one-sided opinion. Am I only protecting myself when I voice my criticisms privately?

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

"Be polite. Be balanced. Be honest. In that order." ought to be applied. Because if you are some random stranger popping in to dole out your wisdom, then don't you want the author to be receptive?

I think that's an excellent creedo. You don't have to be effusive or long-winded, but you don't have to be rude about it either.

But now I'm wondering if I'm denying other readers the chance to defend the work as it stands and preventing the author from receiving a less one-sided opinion. Am I only protecting myself when I voice my criticisms privately?

I think you should do what feels right. I think most authors are very receptive to one-on-one interaction, and sometimes the public forum feels a bit too exposed.

[estrella30.livejournal.com]

YAY! Thank you, sweetie! You are one of my most favorite people in all of fandom - thank you so much for the wonderful wishes!!

*hugs*

(also, OMG YES!! ENTOURAGE! dude, I just - I have seen the light!)

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I love that you are so into Entourage, now. I've been pimping this series forever. I even have a series of S1 tapes that have been trekking cross country since last year, being sent from person-to-person in my grassroots effort to get more people on board. And of course, Happy Birthday, sweetie. :D

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

In the Great Criticism Debate, I've seen a lot of people say they no longer offer unsolicited detailed feedback, because no matter how politely they phrased their comments, the author took offense and hated them forevermore. It's yet to happen to me, but I've also been careful about the authors I respond to. Some stories seem whacked in terms of characterization or plot and usually I just refrain from commenting at all. That seems just as bad as being rude about my reaction. Sometimes silence isn't golden. It just means that an author can't grow into new skills and artistry.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Some stories seem whacked in terms of characterization or plot and usually I just refrain from commenting at all.

When something seems completely off kilter to me I either surf away or just say nothing.

[thepouncer.livejournal.com]

What about when you have one or two reservations? Where a characterization isn't set up and suddenly becomes a major plot point to create conflict? Or where you read and don't quite follow the writer's intent? I've been known to leave feedback noting my difficulties after I state how much I enjoyed the story otherwise.

I don't know. I value my honesty as a reader just as much as I value my integrity as a writer.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

I think my degree of involvement depends on my relationship with the author. If it's someone I know well, I'm more willing to say I loved X&Y, but Z and I don't get on.

[theantimodel.livejournal.com]

I'm terrible with commas and semi-colons and the like. I use commas way too much half the time, and then I spend the other half paranoid that I've used too many and abandon them entirely. I don't expect perfect grammar from writers or stories that are 100% error-free. Typos and dropped commas are expected. But if an author says that they don't use betas because their spellcheck works just as well and they don't want a beta to fuck with their writing style, shouldn't their stories back that statement up by being free of those types of errors?

I rarely leave con-crit unless an author specifically says that they're open to getting it and I think my suggestions could be helpful. To me saying that suggests that the author is genuinely interested in learning and growing as a writer through the con-crit process. And I completely agree with what you and murklins said about being polite. People in general aren't going to be receptive to criticism if it's doled out in a rude or condescending manner. If you're a reader who wants to leave con-crit I think it's important to stress the constructive. If your criticism is only meant to tear down a person's writing and not help them make it better, I think there's a problem with that.

Also, feel free to name me, I don't really care either way. (and: am I wrong in thinking that the manners portion of this post is not directed at me? Because I certainly thought I was being polite in my interaction with that author.)

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

Also, feel free to name me, I don't really care either way. (and: am I wrong in thinking that the manners portion of this post is not directed at me? Because I certainly thought I was being polite in my interaction with that author.)

Oh, darling of course not, you're one of the most polite, delightful people I've ever met.

[theantimodel.livejournal.com]

Heh, I assumed that but I thought I'd check just to make sure. You know what they say about assumptions after all.

I'm downloading Prison Break because of you and this Wentworth kid. I'm reserving the right to blame you if I get hooked.

[hackthis.livejournal.com]

He's just... whoooo. The rest of the show is filler for the scenes with him. He's absolutely electric, and his performance is so understated it's like whoa.